The Ego Trap: How To Navigate Conversations & Deal With Narcissists
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• “Cooperative overlapping” is different from interrupting. It’s about talking along with the speaker, not to undermine or cut them off, but to validate what they’re saying, give encouragement, and show that they’re paying close attention. It can vary across cultures; neither way is right, but try to acknowledge and accommodate differences.
00:00:00 Hello listeners
00:04:29 Try to be alert of the different kinds of interrupting/overlapping
00:08:49 Mastering Turn-Taking
00:13:08 When They’re the Conversational Narcissist
00:21:27 Summary
• Turn-taking rules can be complex and culture-bound, but a big part of learning to be charming, likeable, and a good communicator is to constantly be appraising the situation and adapting and adjusting yourself accordingly.
• When dealing with a conversational narcissist, don’t try to rescue the conversation by being more attentive, understanding, and charming yourself, or you’ll be taken advantage of. Instead use the gray rock technique and be aloof and unresponsive until they lose interest, and minimize contact as much as possible. Tighten up boundaries.
Transcript
Hello listeners, welcome to the April 18, 2024 episode of Social Skills Coaching, where
Speaker:you become more likeable, more charismatic, and more productive.
Speaker:Today we're diving into another chapter of Make Friends Easily by Patrick King.
Speaker:The chapter is titled, When Ego Gets in the Way, and it tackles the challenges of navigating
Speaker:conversations and dealing with difficult personalities.
Speaker:Stay tuned as we explore how to co-operatively overlap in conversation without interrupting
Speaker:and discover how to adapt your communication style across cultures.
Speaker:We'll also be discussing the gray rock technique, a powerful tool for dealing with conversation
Speaker:narcissists.
Speaker:If you'd like to learn more about Patrick King or his book, Make Friends Easily, visit
Speaker:his website at bit.ly-pk-consulting, that's bit.ly-pk-consulting.
Speaker:There's not too much more to say about interrupting, it's bad, and undermines rapport.
Speaker:But what about when interrupting isn't interrupting, but cooperative overlapping?
Speaker:A professor of linguistics at Georgetown University, Deborah Tannen coined the term
Speaker:cooperative overlapping, CO, and explains how it's very different from interrupting.
Speaker:CO is about talking along with the speaker, not to undermine or cut them off, but to validate
Speaker:what they're saying, give encouragement, and show that they're paying close attention.
Speaker:She alternatively calls it participatory listenership, and enthusiastic listenership, and explains
Speaker:how different cultures have different expectations about this behavior.
Speaker:Some people find, for example, that in certain countries or cities, interrupting is considered
Speaker:a normal and lively part of conversation, and it eases and encourages conversation rather
Speaker:than stops it.
Speaker:Cooperative overlapping is said to be common in Jewish New Yorkers, for example, who'd
Speaker:nevertheless find that others may see their communication style as too aggressive, where
Speaker:they might feel that an overlapping, excitable conversation signals full engagement.
Speaker:Others might see this as a sign that nobody's really listening to one another, and consider
Speaker:all interruptions to be a sign of rudeness.
Speaker:The real problem only comes in when communication styles are not matched or aligned.
Speaker:When two different types try to talk, the interrupted speaker can get thrown out of whack,
Speaker:and may stop speaking altogether or feel quite offended.
Speaker:This can create awkwardness all around.
Speaker:What to do?
Speaker:According to Tannen, it's not an insurmountable problem once you're aware of what's going
Speaker:on.
Speaker:If you don't know someone well, try to get a sense early on what their style might be
Speaker:like.
Speaker:If they appear to be a cooperative overlapper and you're not, you can safely assume that
Speaker:you can carry on talking if they interject before you're finished.
Speaker:Maybe it has a sign that they are listening and engaged with what you're saying, in effect
Speaker:helping you say it, and take your time finishing and completing your point.
Speaker:When they're talking, try interjecting more often and see what responses you get.
Speaker:It may feel a little strange at first, but you might find that more nonverbal engagement
Speaker:from you actually makes the conversation flow better.
Speaker:If you yourself are the cooperative overlapper, be patient with people who might not be.
Speaker:If you chip in with a comment and they stop speaking, say something like, I'm sorry,
Speaker:I wasn't interrupting you.
Speaker:If you find they're getting flustered, try to limit your responses to nonverbal ones
Speaker:while they're talking, for example nodding your head, gestures, facial expressions and
Speaker:eye contact.
Speaker:Try to be alert of the different kinds of interrupting or overlapping.
Speaker:Transitional overlap.
Speaker:This is where someone jumps in and starts speaking close to the end, or what they think
Speaker:might be the end of what the other person is saying.
Speaker:We've hired older folks, we've hired kids out of school, I can tell you, we have a very
Speaker:diverse mix of employees, we'll hire anyone.
Speaker:What matters is your work ethic, and whether you can get the job done, that's all that
Speaker:matters.
Speaker:I tell the interns that come through here, I tell them that it doesn't matter how much
Speaker:experience you have, but it's like some people think it's enough just to have the qualifications
Speaker:just to be good on paper when actually you need to have a certain attitude as well, right?
Speaker:In this exchange, B is definitely interrupting, but in a way that doesn't really cut A off
Speaker:but adds fuel to what they're saying.
Speaker:If A was also a cooperative overlapper, they would interrupt B in just the same way.
Speaker:Recognitional overlap, basically finishing a person's sentence.
Speaker:We've hired older folks, we've hired kids out of school, I can tell you, we have a very
Speaker:diverse mix of employees, we'll hire anyone.
Speaker:What matters is your work ethic, and whether you can get the job done, that's all that
Speaker:matters.
Speaker:I tell the interns that come through here, I tell them that it doesn't matter how much
Speaker:experience you have, but it's your mindset, exactly.
Speaker:Progressional overlap, this is when the first speaker is having difficulty expressing themselves,
Speaker:and the second speaker interrupts to help cover over the gap and keep the conversation
Speaker:progressing.
Speaker:I tell the interns that come through here, I tell them it doesn't matter how much experience
Speaker:you have, but it's your attitude, but it's your mindset, your outlook, like your perspective
Speaker:on things, yeah exactly, your mindset, that's the thing that actually makes the difference,
Speaker:and blah blah blah.
Speaker:Like channel interrupting.
Speaker:In some cultures, and in some contexts, people may like to frequently interject while a person
Speaker:is speaking precisely to support, encourage, and engage with what they're hearing.
Speaker:Strictly they are interrupting, but the intention is the same as a support response.
Speaker:These speakers, for example, may listen closely and repeatedly say so so so throughout, which
Speaker:is a phatic expression that's a little like verbal cheerleading from the sidelines.
Speaker:African Americans may do something similar when they interject with expressions like
Speaker:uh huh, or yeah, or I hear that while someone is talking.
Speaker:Rather than either of these cultural practices being rude, they're actually a sign of active
Speaker:and respectful participation, or if you like, a culturally unique way of listening.
Speaker:Some people may be happy to overlap in some environments but not in others, it might feel
Speaker:fun to talk all at once when out on the town with friends for example, but it can be overwhelming
Speaker:and confusing to do so when trying to solve a difficult problem as a group, or in a professional
Speaker:context.
Speaker:Overlamping may also depend on other factors, such as gender, class, culture, and context.
Speaker:It may be tolerated by some in big groups, but not when in pairs, or it may be a behavior
Speaker:reserved for some occasions but not others.
Speaker:Whatever the case, Tannen believes that no style is better or worse than another, only
Speaker:that it's worth recognizing the differences and keeping them in mind when you're trying
Speaker:to connect with someone a little different from yourself.
Speaker:Don't automatically assume that a person interrupting you doesn't care about what you're saying,
Speaker:or that the person who is listening quietly without interjecting isn't engaged with the
Speaker:story you're telling.
Speaker:Mastering Turn-Taking You've probably never thought about it before,
Speaker:but knowing exactly when it's your turn to speak in a conversation is actually a rather
Speaker:complex question, and has resolved using many different conventions and norms.
Speaker:The way people organize themselves in conversations is a kind of meta-conversation, a social agreement
Speaker:that everyone speaking will follow the rough rules for engagement.
Speaker:People in cultures of all kinds can agree that turn-taking should take place, it's just
Speaker:that they often disagree on the exact rules.
Speaker:How is airtime divided?
Speaker:How do you signal a change in turn?
Speaker:How long is each turn?
Speaker:If you find yourself repeatedly having difficulty in conversations, it may be that there is
Speaker:some friction or misunderstanding in turn-taking.
Speaker:Imagine that every contribution to a conversation takes a particular structure.
Speaker:There's the introduction, the content or message itself, and the ending where the speaker signals
Speaker:that their turn has ended and they're giving up the floor to someone else.
Speaker:There may also be other rules, such as not leaving too much empty space between turns
Speaker:and not having more than one person have the floor at a time, with the exception of enthusiastic
Speaker:listening.
Speaker:So, what are these rules?
Speaker:Well, that depends on who you are, where you are, and what you're doing.
Speaker:A big part of learning to be charming, likable, and a good communicator is to constantly be
Speaker:appraising the situation and adapting and adjusting yourself accordingly.
Speaker:Someone may signal that their turn is over and that you can begin your turn by using
Speaker:eye contact.
Speaker:They might talk for some time and then make eye contact with you when they're done, like
Speaker:serving the conversational tennis ball back to you.
Speaker:Language and tonal voice.
Speaker:They may suddenly change these in a way that communicates that they're concluding their
Speaker:contribution.
Speaker:Body language.
Speaker:Different gestures can indicate that it is now your turn.
Speaker:The speaker can also signal they're finished by sitting back in their seat, crossing their
Speaker:arms, or adopting some other closing movement.
Speaker:A question is a very obvious one, but people can signal that they want you to jump in by
Speaker:mentioning your name directly, referring to you or your opinion, or saying something
Speaker:like, I imagine you and I differ on that though, followed by pause.
Speaker:Slowing down or pausing.
Speaker:Some people, especially those who favour an overlapping style, will sometimes literally
Speaker:stop in the middle of a sentence or slow right down.
Speaker:And I was just like, followed by a shrug, indicates that the person probably doesn't
Speaker:intend to finish their thought.
Speaker:In some cultures though, saying, you know, or it's equivalent is not necessarily an
Speaker:indication that the turn has ended, but could be more of an invitation for support responses
Speaker:like, yeah, or, uh-huh.
Speaker:Linguists and anthropologists have studied turn taking behaviour for decades, and it's
Speaker:a rich and fascinating area.
Speaker:All you need to know, as a budding good conversationalist and social butterfly, is to be aware that
Speaker:these rules exist in the first place, and that they may not always be the same from one situation
Speaker:to the next.
Speaker:When you become aware of two people talking at once during a conversation, that's your
Speaker:cue to notice it and try to understand it.
Speaker:Is someone, maybe you, interrupting?
Speaker:Is it cooperative overlapping?
Speaker:Do you and your conversational partner have different communication styles?
Speaker:In a group, what is the general consensus for the rules, and how can you match to that?
Speaker:When they're the conversational narcissist.
Speaker:We'll end this book on a topic that's probably been lingering in your mind throughout.
Speaker:How do you deal with someone else who isn't a good listener, isn't charming, and is a
Speaker:conversational narcissist?
Speaker:How do you deal with endless shift responses or being interrupted?
Speaker:There's no point denying it.
Speaker:It takes two to ten go, and if only one person in a conversation is listening actively, asking
Speaker:questions and maintaining curiosity, that conversation is not going to go anywhere.
Speaker:A word of warning, the more you improve your own conversational skills, the more you may
Speaker:notice how poor other people are.
Speaker:One big mistake you can make when encountering a conversational narcissist is to imagine
Speaker:that you can elevate things or rescue the conversation simply by being more attentive,
Speaker:understanding, and charming yourself.
Speaker:More realistically, what tends to happen is that you don't rescue the conversational
Speaker:narcissist, but rather they suck you in, and soon you may find yourself competing with
Speaker:them and even resorting to your own tactics to wrestle the focus back from them and onto
Speaker:yourself.
Speaker:In other words, often the only possible way of talking with a narcissist is to become
Speaker:one yourself.
Speaker:Instead, take a neutral and rational position.
Speaker:You cannot force self-absorbed people to pay attention to you, so don't waste energy
Speaker:trying.
Speaker:If someone is incapable of genuinely seeing you, hearing you, or acknowledging you as
Speaker:a separate and valuable person, there is seldom anything you can or should do to change their
Speaker:mind.
Speaker:At best, you can pay attention and see if there is anything you can learn from them,
Speaker:i.e. what not to do, and then move swiftly on.
Speaker:Using the gray rock technique is a way to protect yourself while maintaining your own
Speaker:standard of politeness.
Speaker:Basically, being a gray rock means being unresponsive to manipulation.
Speaker:It's a way of holding your own and making sure that you're not being ensnared by another
Speaker:person's attempts to dominate a conversation, mistreat you, or make you feel bad.
Speaker:Sometimes conversational narcissists create their own reality distortion field that can
Speaker:influence you, but only if you let it.
Speaker:When you believe you may be in the presence of a conversational narcissist, consciously
Speaker:adopt the attitude of a gray rock.
Speaker:Boring, dull, unresponsive.
Speaker:The reason is that narcissists do what they do because they want all attention to be on
Speaker:them.
Speaker:Make it clear that you're not really a viable source for this attention, and they'll lose
Speaker:interest.
Speaker:While most of the time you would be interested in increasing intimacy and closeness, with
Speaker:such a person you want to do the opposite.
Speaker:Keep things shallow, neutral, and banal.
Speaker:Be as impersonal as possible.
Speaker:You're not violently pushing against them, you're just like a gray rock that doesn't
Speaker:do much of anything.
Speaker:You're bland.
Speaker:Remind yourself that your full, genuine, and empathetic attention is not a free-for-all,
Speaker:it is something reserved for those people who can see it and appreciate it.
Speaker:For those who can't, your only obligation is to be polite.
Speaker:That's for your benefit, not theirs.
Speaker:Disengage if necessary.
Speaker:Never become defensive, sensitive, upset, or reactive.
Speaker:Don't give them any information, buttons to push, or handles to grab you by, but keep
Speaker:responses neutral and short.
Speaker:If you're feeling insulted or triggered, don't show it, just manage the conversation
Speaker:as it is, and disengage as soon as it's realistic to do so.
Speaker:Manage your interactions with this person.
Speaker:Not everyone has the luxury of permanently avoiding a conversational narcissist.
Speaker:If you have to be around them, put buffers in place.
Speaker:You can ensure there's always an activity going on to distract you and give an excuse
Speaker:to escape.
Speaker:You could make sure you're never alone with them, or you could orchestrate meetings that
Speaker:have a natural but definite end.
Speaker:Keep it light, and make sure you're not giving them an opportunity to insert themselves
Speaker:or dominate.
Speaker:Don't be a doormat.
Speaker:In ordinary conversation, active listening, questions, and support responses tend to create
Speaker:more trust, liking, and understanding between people.
Speaker:Those who are secure in themselves will respond well and be happy to return to the kindness
Speaker:and listen carefully to you when it's your turn to speak.
Speaker:Show this kindness to a conversational narcissist, however, and you're only inviting them to
Speaker:walk all over you.
Speaker:If you're in the presence of someone who cannot talk about anything other than themselves,
Speaker:give yourself permission not to ask them questions or give endless support responses.
Speaker:People only leave the conversation feeling resentful and as though you've been taken
Speaker:advantage of.
Speaker:Tighten up boundaries.
Speaker:The boundary that most needs defending is often the one around your time.
Speaker:Keep interactions with them as brief as possible.
Speaker:Don't share secrets or self-disclose, nor respond to their self-disclosures.
Speaker:Don't take any emotional bait, but breezily move on from tricky topics.
Speaker:Be aloof, but civil.
Speaker:Decide on the emotional frame that you want to hold, then stay there.
Speaker:If someone interrupts you, for example, don't sit there, seething quietly while you let
Speaker:them talk, but at the same time, don't get visibly upset and interrupt them in return.
Speaker:They say, oh, oops, I wasn't finished speaking yet.
Speaker:Then continue to speak.
Speaker:If it keeps happening, make your excuses and end the conversation.
Speaker:With non-narcissistic people, it's wise to assume the best and keep trying to push past
Speaker:any awkwardness for the sake of that precious rapport and connection.
Speaker:With a conversational narcissist, however, the best strategy goes the other way.
Speaker:Let your losses early and leave.
Speaker:The world is full of interesting, attentive people who you can connect with instead.
Speaker:Put it into practice.
Speaker:The final exercise is about boundaries.
Speaker:This book has been about creating connection, conversation, and friendships, but sometimes
Speaker:what's needed is to reduce the number of poor connections we have and draw a line against
Speaker:unhealthy conversation or friendships that have run their course.
Speaker:Try now to identify a current social habit in your life that you are ready to let go
Speaker:of, whether that's interrupting others or allowing others to interrupt you, talking
Speaker:about yourself too much, or not asserting yourself enough when others talk over you.
Speaker:Perhaps in a bid to improve your social life overall, you might like to think about a particular
Speaker:relationship that you'd like to minimize or detach from.
Speaker:Developing great social skills means you can improve any relationship and be calmer, more
Speaker:confident, and more likeable.
Speaker:At the same time, not every person can and should be your friend.
Speaker:Sometimes the best thing we can do is to be honest about the people, behavior, and relationships
Speaker:that we're no longer happy with, and have the courage to move on from them so we can
Speaker:make more room for the kinds of connections we really want.
Speaker:Summary
Speaker:The biggest threat to connecting well with others is conversational narcissism, i.e. the
Speaker:tendency of centering ourselves, talking too much, steering the topic, interrupting,
Speaker:and validating others, bragging, manipulating, or acting superior to others.
Speaker:Everyone has the potential to be narcissistic in conversation at times.
Speaker:A shift response is an attempt to bring the focus and attention of a conversation back
Speaker:to yourself.
Speaker:A support response maintains that focus and attention on the other person.
Speaker:A great way to reduce conversational narcissism is to use fewer shift responses and more
Speaker:support responses.
Speaker:When used well, support responses lead to better, more fulfilling conversations for everyone.
Speaker:Dr. Carl Albrecht says that all conversations can be broken down into three fundamental
Speaker:components, declaratives, questions, and conditionals.
Speaker:His rule of three is to never make three declarative statements in a row without a question or
Speaker:conditional statement.
Speaker:Declarations can be presented as statements of fact, whether they are or aren't, and
Speaker:can shut down conversations or act as shift responses.
Speaker:Conditionals are modified, weaker forms of declarations that acknowledge their own subjectivity.
Speaker:Condition of overlapping is different from interrupting.
Speaker:It's about talking along with the speaker, not to undermine or cut them off, but to validate
Speaker:what they're saying, give encouragement, and show that they're paying close attention.
Speaker:It can vary across cultures.
Speaker:Neither way is right, but try to acknowledge and accommodate differences.
Speaker:Conversation rules can be complex and culture bound, but a big part of learning to be charming,
Speaker:likeable, and a good communicator is to constantly be appraising the situation and adapting and
Speaker:adjusting yourself accordingly.
Speaker:When dealing with a conversational narcissist, don't try to rescue the conversation by being
Speaker:more attentive, understanding, and charming yourself, or you'll be taken advantage of.
Speaker:Instead, use the gray rock technique and be aloof and unresponsive until they lose interest
Speaker:and minimize contact as much as possible.
Speaker:Tighten up boundaries.
Speaker:Alright listeners, that's all for today's episode on navigating conversations and keeping
Speaker:your ego in check.
Speaker:Remember, communication is a dance, and with little practice, you can become a smoother,
Speaker:more confident mover on the social dance floor.
Speaker:For more tips on building your social skills, subscribe to Social Skills Coaching, wherever
Speaker:you get your podcasts, and don't forget to leave us a review to let us know what you
Speaker:think.
Speaker:We'll see you next time.
Speaker:Bye.
